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[ A Stack Overflow for OSG? ]

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Steal
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Joined: 26 Jan 2017
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject:
[ A Stack Overflow for OSG? ]
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The forum is great for complaining about your problems, but it is a bit of an unmoderated mess. You'd be better off launching a Stack Overflow site made just for OSG.


Last edited by Steal on Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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robertosfield
OSG Project Lead


Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 10855

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:46 pm    Post subject:
[ A Stack Overflow for OSG? ]
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Hi Johny,

On 17 February 2017 at 12:35, Johny Canes <> wrote:
Quote:
The forum is great for complaining about your problems, but it is a bit of an unmoderated mess. You'd be better off launching a Stack Overflow site made just for OSG.

And then we'd need to split out time between support on Stack Overflow
and support here on the forum/mailing list. What might be good for
you personally can be show stopper for those having to try and juggle
multiple avenues for support.

Robert.


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SMesserschmidt (Sebastian Messerschmidt)
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Joined: 10 Sep 2013
Posts: 720

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject:
[ A Stack Overflow for OSG? ]
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Am 2/17/2017 um 1:35 PM schrieb Johny Canes:
Quote:
Hi,

The forum is great for complaining about your problems, but it is a bit of an unmoderated mess. You'd be better off launching a Stack Overflow site made just for OSG.
Can you elaborate, what kind of moderation you miss? Currently I'm the
only active moderator and can perform only basic tasks in my free-time.
There is simply no more time for me than for the spam-filtering, basic
user administration etc. And I second Robert's opinion. Splitting time
between two support channels won't work for me either.

Basically most of the oldies here prefer the mailing list anyways, which
is attached to the forum. So help in terms of long-term forum moderation
is always welcome.

Cheers
Sebastian

Quote:

Thank you!

Cheers,
Johny

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Steal
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Joined: 26 Jan 2017
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:23 pm    Post subject:
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Hi,

It's a bit of a rusty archaic combo - a phpbb forum backed by a mailing list. Nobody has any respect for this place, meaning everybody just posts questions instead of searching for a generic problem domain.

Thank you!

Cheers,
Johny
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robertosfield
OSG Project Lead


Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 10855

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:22 pm    Post subject:
[ A Stack Overflow for OSG? ]
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On 17 February 2017 at 19:23, Johny Canes <> wrote:
Quote:
It's a bit of a ruty archaic combo - a phpbb forum backed by a mailing list. Nobody has any respect for this place, meaning everybody just posts questions instead of searching for a generic problem domain.

Your response is classic example of someone who responds with emotive
and manipulative language when you can't convince others to do what
you want. Please keep such post off the forum/mailing list is they
really aren't helpful to us as a community or to you getting the
support you need i.e. don't be a obnoxious to others that you want
help from.

The mailing list/forum exists for supporting the community. Sure we
get quite a few posts from developers who really could have easily got
an answer by reading the heads, the doxygen docs, the OSG examples,
the docs on the website, the OSG books or search the web. Developers
with more initiative will find these examples and rarely post apart
from advanced question.

Sure I woould prefer that all developers had the initiative to get by
without asking so many obvious questions, but the world is made of
many different type of people, some people like do background research
and try to learn things for themselves while others call for help for
the most trivial details. No matter how much documentation or the
avenues for accessing information there will always be users who ask
questions first. Such developers will always be more visible in a
community like this, but it doesn't mean they make up the bulk of the
community.

Robert


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Steal
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Joined: 26 Jan 2017
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:05 am    Post subject:
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Hi Robert,

I think the current way of answering to developers is like.. an anthill. You are gratified to see people use your library and most good answers here come from you. I think others forumers are discouraged of helping others because this forum is diluted into a thin stream of non-generic problems which you silently approve or disapprove of. If you don't have a short answer to a topic in general it feels like getting the cold shoulder.

While the examples are amazing, I think the General forum is not very good at being a uh community resource.

(You seem like the classic example of the developer doing most of the answering, something that's generally not very desirable. I believe people are discouraged from becoming a part of the brainpower.)

Meant no offense,

Thank you!

Cheers,
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robertosfield
OSG Project Lead


Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 10855

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:57 am    Post subject:
[ A Stack Overflow for OSG? ]
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On 18 February 2017 at 09:05, Johny Canes <> wrote:
Quote:
Meant no offense,

If you didn't mean to be offensive then don't use offensive language. Simple.

I will call people out for being offensive and manipulative, it's not
an acceptable way to conduct yourselves in the this community. Putting
up with community members who use this approach is pretty well the
worst thing about being part of an active open source community. YES,
some of what you've written in this thread is an example of this.

So please be polite, be constructive, and re-read what you are posting
to make sure it's not offensive.

Robert.


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Jan Ciger
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:39 pm    Post subject:
[ A Stack Overflow for OSG? ]
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Hello,

On 17/02/17 20:23, Johny Canes wrote:
Quote:
Hi,

It's a bit of a ruty archaic combo - a phpbb forum backed by a
mailing list. Nobody has any respect for this place, meaning
everybody just posts questions instead of searching for a generic
problem domain.

Thank you!

What makes you think that replacing the technical infrastructure
(forum/mailing list) will magically fix what is, by your own admission,
ultimately a human attitude problem?

These questions and suggestions about Stack Overflow come at least once
or twice a year - along with the answers why it is not a good idea. Did
you read them? The mailing list is not only for answering developers'
questions.

Best regards,

Jan





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Steal
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:49 pm    Post subject:
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Hi,

If you are so above the gripes of a newbie then why do the vets flock to flame this thread. I am not the firestarter, I have apparently hit a nerve of the elite here. I really do not care what happens with this forum, I just come here for my own stupid egotistical shit.

Thank you!

Cheers,
Johny
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Steal
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Joined: 26 Jan 2017
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:50 pm    Post subject:
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Hi,

Erm nevertheless I am very very charmed by OSG it's just that the General forum is a shipwreck.

Thank you!

Cheers,
Johny
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robertosfield
OSG Project Lead


Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 10855

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:11 am    Post subject:
[ A Stack Overflow for OSG? ]
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On 18 February 2017 at 18:49, Johny Canes <> wrote:
Quote:
If you are so above the gripes of a newbie then why do the vets flock to flame this thread. I am not the firestarter, I have apparently hit a nerve of the elite here.

What hits a nerve is that fact you are rude, it's you that are
embodying what you criticize others of. You have been asked to avoid
this type of emotive manipulative language several times but still you
persist.

The problem is far less the mailing list/forum and far more your
attitude towards others. Refrain from this attitude and you'll find
that us elite's are actually incredibly patient and supportive.


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kornerr
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Joined: 01 Oct 2013
Posts: 151

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:36 am    Post subject:
[ A Stack Overflow for OSG? ]
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Hi.
I would says from my personal experience that stackoverflow is a great place to find answers to common questions and, what's more important, to see most upvoted answers.

Mailing list/forum doesn't have that.



I would also say that moving to Stackoverflow from Mailing list/Forum is like moving from self-hosted SVN to Github: the idea is the same, but implementation is more convenient (e.g., no need to attach complete files where you only need a tiny pull request).


Thanks.





2017-02-19 15:09 GMT+07:00 Robert Osfield < (
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Quote:
On 18 February 2017 at 18:49, Johny Canes < (
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)> wrote:
Quote:
If you are so above the gripes of a newbie then why do the vets flock to flame this thread. I am not the firestarter, I have apparently hit a nerve of the elite here.

What hits a nerve is that fact you are rude, it's you that are
embodying what you criticize others of.  You have been asked to avoid
this type of emotive manipulative language several times but still you
persist.

The problem is far less the mailing list/forum and far more your
attitude towards others. Refrain from this attitude and you'll find
that us elite's are actually incredibly patient and supportive.
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osg-users mailing list
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http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org




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robertosfield
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:56 am    Post subject:
[ A Stack Overflow for OSG? ]
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Hi Michael,

On 20 February 2017 at 08:34, michael kapelko <> wrote:
Quote:
I would says from my personal experience that stackoverflow is a great place
to find answers to common questions and, what's more important, to see most
upvoted answers.
Mailing list/forum doesn't have that.

I agree that there are advantages for certain types of FAQ style issues.

However, it's completely inappropriate for more involved topics, very
often we get a thread started on the mailing list/forum that requires
an iterative approach where those with more experience have to request
more information, more tests, and steadily explore the issues that
users are seeing.

Then there are design/implementation testing topics, again a
discussion forum/mailing list is what is required.

I am sure I can come up with other.type of discussion that we
regularly have in the community that are in-appropriate for somethiing
like StackOverflow.


Quote:
I would also say that moving to Stackoverflow from Mailing list/Forum is
like moving from self-hosted SVN to Github: the idea is the same, but
implementation is more convenient (e.g., no need to attach complete files
where you only need a tiny pull request).

We can do all our version control work on Github, We absolutely can't
do all our comminication work on StackOverflow. It's not a case of
replacing a self managed Subversion repository with a centrally
managed service like Github.

If we were to embrace StackOverflow we would still need to existing
forum/mailing list, you are ADDING an extra avenue of work not
replacing one. The resource that is most precious for us is not user
time, but the time of people like myself, the ones doing the support.
Splitting support duties over multiple venues is a dreadful way to go,
speading yourself too thinly is a guarentee of burnout and failure.

So SVN -> Github, it's absolutely not the same thing as forum/mailing
list -> Stackoverflow.

Robert.


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Jan Ciger
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:06 am    Post subject:
[ A Stack Overflow for OSG? ]
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On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 9:34 AM, michael kapelko < (
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Quote:
Hi.
I would says from my personal experience that stackoverflow is a great place to find answers to common questions and, what's more important, to see most upvoted answers.

Mailing list/forum doesn't have that.



I would also say that moving to Stackoverflow from Mailing list/Forum is like moving from self-hosted SVN to Github: the idea is the same, but implementation is more convenient (e.g., no need to attach complete files where you only need a tiny pull request).


Thanks.




You are forgetting that the mailing list is not only for supporting users/answering questions. For that SO is indeed useful. However, SO is completely useless as a medium for having a discussion - such as this one. In fact, such topics get routinely locked there as not being constructive.


Also the mailing list is not a bug tracking system (like the issues page on Github). Ever tried to have a meaningful discussion using the issues system there? In fact, that is the part of Github that is the most heavily criticized and hated, because it is neither a proper bugtracker (lacks more advanced features to track/assign/classify the problem reports) and neither a proper discussion forum. 


Then there is the aspect of convenience. From my experience as a developer supporting a few projects, I don't have means nor time to check 10 different websites with 10 different systems every day for what is new and who needs help. I wouldn't be doing anything else. Email may sound archaic but it is a great timesaver - because the issue comes to me instead of me having to search for it. On many forums people are whining that their questions are not being answered - guess why. If the developer doesn't come there and read the entire forum every day (super time consuming!), they may never see it.


Setting up notifications is not really a solution - it still requires you to context switch, load that page, remember what login you had for that system, answer the issue - in the same time two or three things could have been handled already if I was able to use email directly - especially when I am doing it on my own time. This is why e.g. Github allows to reply to issues by email as well. 


I encourage anyone suggesting that the list moves to some new shiny thing XY, because it is better/nicer/more modern/I don't like e-mail/forum/etc to consider these issues in the future. You are getting free support, so making the life easier for the project leads like Robert is probably the least they can ask for in exchange. 




All the best, 


Jan

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Eric Sokolowsky
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:21 pm    Post subject:
[ A Stack Overflow for OSG? ]
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On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 4:04 AM, Jan Ciger < (
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Quote:


I encourage anyone suggesting that the list moves to some new shiny thing XY, because it is better/nicer/more modern/I don't like e-mail/forum/etc to consider these issues in the future. You are getting free support, so making the life easier for the project leads like Robert is probably the least they can ask for in exchange. 






If I could upvote this response I would. Smile As much as I like StackOverflow, it is not the answer for OSG. Making life easier for the developers (especially Robert) is paramount for this project.


Eric

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