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The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

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Chris Hanson
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:47 pm    Post subject:
The naming of VulkanSceneGraph
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I also reached out to Graham Sellers about bringing the issue to Khronos, but have not heard back yet.

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 10:52 AM John Richardson < (
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Quote:
Chris / Robert,

I will make it a priority to see if I can meet with KHRONOS at SIGGRAPH
before the OSG BOF.

Oh, and while we are thinking OSG BOF, OSG BOF, OSG BOF.....Smile ...Smile

All purveyor's of OSG wisdom are invited to present at the OSG BOF on
Wednesday Aug 15 [ or 15 AUG for the Europeans...Smile ...Smile ]

Start making your "wish list" of topics for such inquiries for me to
discuss.

We can take this off list if that is best.

John "Double Smiley" Richardson

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From: osg-users [mailto: (
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Sent: Monday, June 25, 2018 8:18 PM
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Subject: Re: The naming of VulkanSceneGraph

On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 at 17:01, Chris Hanson < (
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Quote:
Ok, so does anyone have any actual current contacts with Khronos? I have a
few distant ones but they aren't terribly responsive.

I have met a few from the ARB/Khronos over the years but don't have
any personal contacts.   If people do then please let us know rather
chatting with them right away as going off cocked could do more damage than
good.  If you have a contact then please email me directly and we can then
coordinate.

If there are people going to Siggraph then this might be a time to bring up
the topic of the new scene graph and it's planned name to members of
Khronos, again just emailing me directly will be the best way to coordinate.

Quote:
From my perspective I think the VulkanSceneGraph is by far the most
appropriate name for the project, it is literally exactly what is says it
is.  I also believe that it'll be a big asset to Vulkan adoption beyond the
games industry and promotion to these sectors, and this will mean that it's
a valuable project for Khronos to be supportive of.

For now I'd like to just keep focused on making progress on the
technical/design side, get a design paper written, though the planned
timeline for this (late August) will be a bit late to share at Siggraph
which is in mid August.  By Siggraph I should have a clearer idea of how
thing will look so perhaps a draft might be possible.
Would also like think we'll have a triangle of two rendering by then in a
preliminary experiments.

Cheers,
Robert.
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Eric Sokolowsky
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject:
The naming of VulkanSceneGraph
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Trademark holders *must* defend their trademarks, or they lose them.


On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 6:43 PM, Chris Hanson < (
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Quote:
I think the Vulkan compliance tests (and name usage) only applies to implementations OF the Vulkan API. I don't think it applies to software USING Vulkan.

I think VulkanSceneGraph is a good and descriptive name, I just don't want to see a lot of activity sunk into that name and then have it torpedoed by Khronos as I feel might happen.


Trademark holders are notably defensive about their properties, whether we like that or not.






On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 12:51 PM Curtis Rubel < (
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Quote:
Hi,

     https://www.khronos.org/vulkan/adopters/

     I think this page will alleviate anymore discussion, at
least it sounds pretty straight forward to me that as long as
VulcanSceneGraph passes their tests it seems OK to use the name.
Of course I am no a lawyer either but this text seems to be pretty
simple and in laymen's terms.

Cheers,
Curtis

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Chris 'Xenon' Hanson, omo sanza lettere. http://www.alphapixel.com/
Training • Consulting • Contracting
3D • Scene Graphs (Open Scene Graph/OSG) • OpenGL 2 • OpenGL 3 • OpenGL 4 • GLSL • OpenGL ES 1 • OpenGL ES 2 • OpenCL
Legal/IP • Forensics • Imaging • UAVs • GIS • GPS • osgEarth • Terrain • Telemetry • Cryptography • LIDAR • Embedded • Mobile • iPhone/iPad/iOS • Android
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robertosfield
OSG Project Lead


Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 12144

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:27 pm    Post subject:
The naming of VulkanSceneGraph
Reply with quote

On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 at 14:53, Eric Sokolowsky <> wrote:
Quote:
Trademark holders *must* defend their trademarks, or they lose them.

Indeed this is true. It's only part of the story though.

Khronos mission is to develop and promote open APIs, as part of this
they trademark projects they undertake, they also develop APIs then
promote their use. If Khronos do view VulkanSceneGraph as potentially
infringing then we'll need to discuss with them about granting
permission to use this name, the benefit for Khronos is the it is
significant step in promoting their own cause.

We have three options:

1) Ignore the issue, if Khronos decide they want to discuss the name
then deal with it then.

2) Reach out to Khronos and be co-operative

3) Change the name to something else less relevant

Currently, approach 2 is what Chris has kicked off, no response yet,
so we may need to reach out a bit further.

I am about head off on holiday for a week so won't be doing any
chasing up myself right away.

With Siggraph coming up this might be a good time to reach out and
chat face to face. I won't personally be attending, but If you are
attending then let us know.

The project is less than a month old, so I'm not too concerned about
things as they stand right now. If things don't go the way I'd prefer
then we just fallback to 3, the design and code won't change, it'd be
a wasted opportunity and bit of money spent on URLs but nothing major.

Robert


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Michael Weiblen
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:54 pm    Post subject:
The naming of VulkanSceneGraph
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I'd suggest creating a ticket at https://github.com/KhronosGroup/Vulkan-Ecosystem/issues

-- mew




On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 9:27 AM, Robert Osfield < (
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Quote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 at 14:53, Eric Sokolowsky < (
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)> wrote:
Quote:
Trademark holders *must* defend their trademarks, or they lose them.

Indeed this is true.  It's only part of the story though.

Khronos mission is to develop and promote open APIs, as part of this
they trademark projects they undertake, they also develop APIs then
promote their use.  If Khronos do view VulkanSceneGraph as potentially
infringing then we'll need to discuss with them about granting
permission to use this name, the benefit for Khronos is the it is
significant step in promoting their own cause.

We have three options:

  1) Ignore the issue, if Khronos decide they want to discuss the name
then deal with it then.

  2) Reach out to Khronos and be co-operative

  3) Change the name to something else less relevant

Currently, approach 2 is what Chris has kicked off, no response yet,
so we may need to reach out a bit further.

I am about head off on holiday for a week so won't be doing any
chasing up myself right away.

With Siggraph coming up this might be a good time to reach out and
chat face to face. I won't personally be attending, but If you are
attending then let us know.

The project is less than a month old, so I'm not too concerned about
things as they stand right now.  If things don't go the way I'd prefer
then we just fallback to 3, the design and code won't change, it'd be
a wasted opportunity and bit of money spent on URLs but nothing major.

Robert
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Chris Hanson
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:51 am    Post subject:
The naming of VulkanSceneGraph
Reply with quote

Ok. I've done this.

https://github.com/KhronosGroup/Vulkan-Ecosystem/issues/36



Maybe that will get their attention and some response.


On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 2:54 PM Michael Weiblen < (
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Quote:
I'd suggest creating a ticket at https://github.com/KhronosGroup/Vulkan-Ecosystem/issues

-- mew




On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 9:27 AM, Robert Osfield < (
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Quote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 at 14:53, Eric Sokolowsky < (
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Get registred or enter the forums!
)> wrote:
Quote:
Trademark holders *must* defend their trademarks, or they lose them.

Indeed this is true.  It's only part of the story though.

Khronos mission is to develop and promote open APIs, as part of this
they trademark projects they undertake, they also develop APIs then
promote their use.  If Khronos do view VulkanSceneGraph as potentially
infringing then we'll need to discuss with them about granting
permission to use this name, the benefit for Khronos is the it is
significant step in promoting their own cause.

We have three options:

  1) Ignore the issue, if Khronos decide they want to discuss the name
then deal with it then.

  2) Reach out to Khronos and be co-operative

  3) Change the name to something else less relevant

Currently, approach 2 is what Chris has kicked off, no response yet,
so we may need to reach out a bit further.

I am about head off on holiday for a week so won't be doing any
chasing up myself right away.

With Siggraph coming up this might be a good time to reach out and
chat face to face. I won't personally be attending, but If you are
attending then let us know.

The project is less than a month old, so I'm not too concerned about
things as they stand right now.  If things don't go the way I'd prefer
then we just fallback to 3, the design and code won't change, it'd be
a wasted opportunity and bit of money spent on URLs but nothing major.

Robert
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Mike Weiblen -- Black Hawk, Colorado USA -- http://mew.cx/

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--
Chris 'Xenon' Hanson, omo sanza lettere. http://www.alphapixel.com/
Training • Consulting • Contracting
3D • Scene Graphs (Open Scene Graph/OSG) • OpenGL 2 • OpenGL 3 • OpenGL 4 • GLSL • OpenGL ES 1 • OpenGL ES 2 • OpenCL
Legal/IP • Forensics • Imaging • UAVs • GIS • GPS • osgEarth • Terrain • Telemetry • Cryptography • LIDAR • Embedded • Mobile • iPhone/iPad/iOS • Android
@alphapixel facebook.com/alphapixel (775) 623-PIXL [7495]

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robertosfield
OSG Project Lead


Joined: 18 Mar 2009
Posts: 12144

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:09 pm    Post subject:
The naming of VulkanSceneGraph
Reply with quote

On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 at 03:51, Chris Hanson <> wrote:
Quote:

Ok. I've done this.

https://github.com/KhronosGroup/Vulkan-Ecosystem/issues/36

Maybe that will get their attention and some response.

Guys, I'm in transit on holiday, it's supposed to be a time for me to
relax, not to start thinking about damage control. This is ABSOLUTELY
the worst time to go off half cocked.

Please, no body make any contacts with Khtonos without OK'ing things
with me first and without checking the language. Using the wrong
name, it's VulkanSceneGraph not "Vulkan Scene Graph" is just crazy
too.

For using the Vulkan-Ecosystem/Issue I'm OK with this in principle,
it's a good idea of Mike's. On my return form holiday it was my plan
to enter a ticket with my personal githuib account. This way I can
answer any questions they have directly.

I can't stress this enough, don't do stuff without checking with me
first and giving me, the project lead, the opportunity to take the
first step. Agree in principle is *not* agreeing free reign to do
whatever you want whenever you want.

I am back from holiday on the 9th of July - THIS is the date when we
can fire things back up. Having this stuff kick off while I'm away is
a nightmare,

Please just hit pause while I'm away on holiday.

Robert.


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robertosfield
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:33 am    Post subject:
The naming of VulkanSceneGraph
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Jay! Another sleepiness night due to the stress of how to deal with
unplanned actions of others. I'm not one who thrives on stress, and
not one who enjoys living off 2hrs of sleep. I hate existing like
this, it's neither healthy for my short or long term health.

What makes things difficult is that I really care about the success of
the OpenSceneGraph and VulkanSceneGraph projects. it's important to me
that people who use them/will use them have a positive experience.
This is why I work beyond my normal working hours to make each
releases are a stable as I can get then, why I work hard to fix bugs.

Part of it is also caring about the IP side, making sure don't step on
patents, copyright or trademarks, My poor kids have to put up with my
lecturing them on the importance of respecting copyright, not copying
music, not watching bootlegged videos, what the freedoms and
responsibilities that we have. When it comes the OpenSceneGraph and
VulkanSceneGraph is not just an academic, when it comes to other
viewing these projects as potentially infringing it's my neck on the
line, and as I'm the primarily earner in my household, it's my family
security that is on the line too.

When things happen that on the IP front that I haven't be cleared is
seriously concerning. It doesn't matter whether it's well
intentioned, a mis-step on this front could have significant
consequences for me and my family. This is one area of the project
that I absolutely need full control of, we have to get it right, we
can't afford mistakes.

In this instance things have got out of my control, hopefully it's
just a benign incident, but at this point in time I have no gauge on
what the risks might be. Managing risk is the most effective way to
manage stress, so unfortunately until I know where the chips will fall
on this one it's going to have to be something I'll have to live with
and hope for the best. And yes, this of stress is what keeps me awake
at night.

While I've tried ti coax this thread in the right direction and away
from unplanned actions, it's happened. I clearly wasn't direct enough
with instructions to others. Things happened that I were unexpected
to me, I really didn't consider not being briefed before any Khronos
outreach occurred and not having the opportunity to refine wording, or
regulate the time to one that worked with my own schedule.

You can't predict everything everyone might do or not do, and at what
time, Normally I work on the approach that sharing more information
is better than sharing less, I'm naturally open in life and source
code, it's the fabric of my being. In this instance, going public
about the VulkanSceneGraph project so early in it's life looks to have
been a mistake. This thread, and the mis-steps taken, would never
happened had I just quietly got on with the project, and gone public
when I had concrete answers, had a chance to approach Khronos on my
own terms and when the timing was right.

I guess we all have regrets in our careers, I just never expected that
sharing news about a new open source project would be one of them...


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